Kyle

I have a small (but IMHO important) comment on where your thought took you in the last paragraph. The key thing is that you are not "making" truth through argument. Argument is the path to discovering truth. The core idea is that there is a universal, absolute truth -- we just might not know it. Through argument and discussion, it becomes easier to see the right of a matter and why it is right. However, truth itself is not determined by how many people are arguing one thing or another.

Engaging in argument is important even with the intransigents who are arguing for wrong positions (like your racial inequality example) as an outshoot of the idea of universal salvation -- everyone *can* see the truth, and it's something of a responsibility to try to help people see truth and reason.

Now, the last piece of any discussion of discovering truth is prayer. Reason is only one part of the answer. But that's another discussion.

The sentence was poorly constructed, but I was not talking about "making truth". I was trying to convey that any given truth may be obscured by the correlation it has with procreation. Opinions that are held by people who reproduce more successfully will eventually become the truth believed a majority, independently of it's reality. Obviously, popularity has nothing to do with objective Truth (with a capital T), but does serve to guide the discussion, and can prevent one from giving the proper weight to the evidence suggesting the real Truth.

I do wonder, though, how prayer may be considered a unique opinion-forming process. In that you consider things within a religious frame, is it not just another form of reflection that falls under the ordinary categorization of "you must think about your position"? What makes it different from simple reflection other than that it refers to a specific frame of reference, akin to thinking about problems from an economic perspective, or from an aesthetic perspective? There is the saying, after all, that if you talk to God, that's piety, but if God talks to you, that's crazy. ...would that not then make it equivalent to other forms of consideration? Perhaps similar to saying it out-loud in your head, and gaining a benefit from hearing yourself say it?

I don't think that prayer is really a form of intellectualizing about religion. Mother Theresa said "The fruit of silence is prayer, the fruit of prayer is faith, the fruit of faith is love, the fruit of love is service, the fruit of service is peace". Most intellectual activities don't exactly begin with silence (usually they begin with yelling).

Or, if you prefer a non-Christian, Gandhi said "Prayer is not asking. It is a longing of the soul. It is daily admission of one's weakness. It is better in prayer to have a heart without words than words without a heart"... again, this doesn't sound like religious intellectualizing to me.

As for your "my authority can kick your authority's ass" comment, I think the truth is to be found on your own... but the Jesuits are definitely the intellectual powerhouses of the Church. Most have their first doctorate BEFORE they join the order, and often go on to get a second doctorate. In their 400 year history they've been formidable scientists, theologians, poets, philosophers, and explorers. They've also been formidable warriors, so historically they could both intellectually and literally kick ass when required.

This is a delayed comment, but I've been mulling this one over for a
while. I've thought you were wrong since I first read this, but I
couldn't figure out how to say why or how. The quick version is this:
when I'm intellectualizing about something, I am fundamentally the
center of my thought; but when I'm praying God is the center. So, let
me try to say why that's true and what I mean by it.

In intellectualizing, I'm thinking about what I think about x,y, or z.
Even in thinking about what other people think, the focus is still
fundamentally what I think about what they're thinking and why they are
right or wrong or whatnot. In intellectualizing, the trail always
starts and ends with me. Not only that, but the basic exercise is about
my powers of thought and understanding.

Prayer is different. It's difficult to discuss because people who
believe in the power of prayer and have felt the power of prayer know
this to be obvious, but if you don't know this, it looks a lot like
self-delusion or intellectualizing; but it's not. Also, it's a very
personal thing. For anyone who has felt the real power of prayer, it's
the most amazing, personal, awesome (in the old fashioned sense),
humbling, and wonderful thing that's utterly beyond anything one could
imagine prior to feeling that power. And yet, it's not an end in
itself, it's just a help along the way that helps us stay on the right
path.

At the center of prayer is a recognition that you are not the center of
... well, anything. Which is a strange thing to say. If I'm the one
praying, you might say, *I* am clearly a central party here. I'm
praying about what I'm worried, happy, sad, concerned, etc. about. How
am I not the center? Let me make an analogy.

When you are worried about something, you tend to talk to people you
like and respect, and ask for their advice or just their understanding.
However, you always have the option of ignoring or disagreeing with the
advice, and this makes sense because no matter how much you respect the
advisor, they can be wrong and you have to make the decision that you
think is best. In this case, you are the center in the same way you are
in intellecualizing.

So, how is prayer different? God is the one person that really does
completely understand everything. You, your worries, your situations,
the big picture, and the small picture. His advice can't be dismissed
so easily because He really is right. You can disagree or dismiss what
God has to say, but He is right.

At the heart of intellectualization is that you can understand or make
sense of whatever you're thinking about. At the heart of prayer is the
admission that you don't and that God does.

The crazy thing about prayer is you are talking to the one person that
really does understand. Not only that, but the one person that can and
will help whenever you ask. One of the cliches of prayer is that you
don't always get what you pray for but you always get an answer.
"Whatever happens will be for the best" is one of the phrases bandied
about the most in my family. If you don't believe in the real power of
prayer, this sounds like a cop out. It really isn't though. It's a
fundamental recognition of a few important things including (but not
limited to) 1) our own limitations, 2) the real power and presence of
God, 3) that God is good, and 4) not only is God good, but he cares
about us in a very personal way. It's a recognition that God really
does know what the best outcome is for me and that the best thing really
will happen -- whether it's what I expect or not. And "best" not in
terms of the short term obvious thing, but the long term, what's best
for my soul thing. It's a recognition that even though I probably know
better than any other human what's best for me, I don't know better than
God.

This is incomplete, and I'm still not hitting the nail on the head, but
it's a start.

On a related but different note, I'm sure you have a bazillion and one
suggestions of good things to read, but I'll add a couple quick reads
that I think are interesting and worthwhile reading (at least, I've
enjoyed and appreciated them). They're by C.S. Lewis. The top two are
"Mere Christianity" and "Surprised by Joy". I think "Mere Christianity"
is a good discussion of what Christians believe. "Surprised by Joy" is
the story of C.S. Lewis's conversion. The reason I think it's
interesting is because it discusses, apart from the doctrines and
catechisms and specific beliefs, what it means to BE Christian. He's
not Catholic, he's actually Anglican, but it's rather irrelevant. He's
a good writer and I think he says good, insightful things.

A quick warning, though, (if you don't know), he's British, and has a
very British, conversationalist writing style in these books (different
than the Narnia books if you've read those). I happen to like it, but
if you don't, it can be really irritating.